Man Utd vs Man City

[Nosferatu]

I agree with most of what you say Johnny in terms of the media and what they do to players. But I have to say I am puzzled with your Giggs statement. With regards Best, you can only go on what people say about him because there is limited footage of him playing at his best. But most, and I don't just go with Utd friendly media, say he was one of the best talents to play the game. And that a lot of times, he took to the pitch, he was head and shoulders above everyone. But the general view is that he wasted his talent. So he can never be fully put up there with the Pele's and Maradonas because of that. He retired at 27 which says it all.

Giggs has done well, no doubting that. But you couldn't say over the dominant period that he was their best player. Others were better on the same team. And I know a lot of Utd fans who were critical of him over the past few seasons. That's to take nothing away from him, he was a fantastic player for them and played a strong part in last season's win.

[JohnnyH]

I think it was 442 magazine a few years back asked about 50 of the best ever footballers to names their top 10. (SK may have this issue)  It was amazing in how many of them Best didn't feature at all.  If I remember he placed 1st in one - His own top 10 - and barely featured in all the rest apart from his bestest mates Law and Charlton.  He was a great talent in a time of not a huge amount of skillfull footballers in England.  Best did also retire at 27, thus why he is also low on my list.

As opposed to my post about Giggs saying that he was one of the best ever players, I more think that Best WASN'T one of the best ever players.  Once Giggs retires watch him get better and better as the years pass.  By the time we are all 60 Giggs will be a legend.

[Robser]

Surely Maradonna cant be fully up there so as he cut his career short with drugs!

[JohnnyH]

You're trying to be a smart arse Robser, and you're failing miserably.  Maradona was winning the Italian Cup when he was 30 and appearing and scoring in the World Cup when 34.  He also was playing for the team he loves, Boca Juniors until he was 37.

Below is the UEFA Jubilee poll listing the top European footballers (Does not include any of those amazing Brazilian talents such as Pele, Garinche, etc, or any of the Argentinian talents) and Best is 19th.  A very good showing for a very good player.  But the best?  No where near.

1 Zinedine Zidane  France 123,582
2 Franz Beckenbauer  West Germany 122,569
3 Johan Cruijff  Netherlands 119,332
4 Marco van Basten  Netherlands 117,987
5 Dino Zoff  Italy 114,529
6 Alfredo Di Stéfano  Argentina  Spain 107,435
7 Eusébio  Mozambique  Portugal 103,937
8 Lev Yashin  Soviet Union 101,862
9 Michel Platini  France 99,380
10 Paolo Maldini  Italy 95,497
11 Ferenc Puskás  Hungary  Spain 94,361
12 Paolo Rossi  Italy 91,194
13 Ruud Gullit  Netherlands 91,001
14 Bobby Charlton  England 89,921
15 Lothar Matthäus  West Germany  Germany 86,798
16 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge  West Germany 86,649
17 Franco Baresi  Italy 83,800
18 Gerd Müller  West Germany 82,668
19 George Best  Northern Ireland 79,036
20 Kevin Keegan  England 78,840

[zaphod]

Where the **** is Giggs?

[JohnnyH]

He was number 0

[zaphod]

A very good showing for a very good player.  But the best?  No where near.

- No one is labelling him the best.  All I´m saying is that he was better than that Welsh Yeti ****.

[Robser]

You're trying to be a smart arse Robser, and you're failing miserably.  Maradona was winning the Italian Cup when he was 30 and appearing and scoring in the World Cup when 34.  He also was playing for the team he loves, Boca Juniors until he was 37.

Yeah he was scoring at 34 in a world cup and after the game he scored in he was kicked out the world cup for failing a drugs test!!! So whats your point there? He has opnenly amitted he did drugs from the time he joined Barca onwards so what are you getting at by saying he cheated the system to continue playing - it makes him some sort of legend does it?!

[Robser]

Fact is regardless of what Maradonna did off the field - his on field skill and exploits have made him generally considered the best player of all time - judging Best on the field, and not off it, i dont think anyone can argue he was not a genius - well you can Jonny but now you are saying there was no talent in English football at that time or very little anyway - thats just ridiculous! Also where the **** is Giggs in your post of the top 20 above if he was so good.

And again - the opinions of UEFA offering there top 20 isnt what you should base your own opinion on - I thought you based it on what a player won judging by you using that to back up your statement that Giggs was better than Best! I am not trying to be a smart ars - just answering your points which seem to contradict each other!

[JohnnyH]

You're trying to be a smart arse Robser, and you're failing miserably.  Maradona was winning the Italian Cup when he was 30 and appearing and scoring in the World Cup when 34.  He also was playing for the team he loves, Boca Juniors until he was 37.

Yeah he was scoring at 34 in a world cup and after the game he scored in he was kicked out the world cup for failing a drugs test!!! So whats your point there? He has opnenly amitted he did drugs from the time he joined Barca onwards so what are you getting at by saying he cheated the system to continue playing - it makes him some sort of legend does it?!

Best retired at 27 - you said Maradonas career was cut short by drugs.  I was pointing out it wasn't.

[JohnnyH]

And again - the opinions of UEFA offering there top 20 isnt what you should base your own opinion on - I thought you based it on what a player won judging by you using that to back up your statement that Giggs was better than Best! I am not trying to be a smart ars - just answering your points which seem to contradict each other!

Where am I contradicting myself?

Where did I say that I judge a player on how much he's one? I referred to Giggs haul of trophies, but I'm judging him on the fact he is the best winger I've ever seen.  I've also pointed out that I feel he has never got the credit he deserves because he was not "Bigged up" by the English press because he was Welsh and not English.  Had he been on the left wing for England for his career he would have won European Foootballer of the year and any other prize you can mention.

If I was judging it on medals then I'd have to say Beckham was a brilliant.  He wasn't though.

Best was the first, and at the time, only media whore footballer so he was able to get all the column space.  Nowadays you have the Ashley Coles, Beckhams of the world.

[Robser]

I'll reminf you of when Giggs first burst onto the scene he was indeed "bigged up" by the media-him and Lee Sharpe. He was goin out with Dani Behr - the ultimate football celeb slut! Its to Giggs credit (and due to Ferguson) that he became the professional he did!

However in this day and age it is a lot harder for footballers to go off the band wagon and go on benders-especially the ones playing at the top - back in Best's day it was common place for footballers to go drinking all the time - he just had an addictive personality (his mother was also an alcoholic) and got caught up in the evils of drinking! I doubt Best wanted the media hype to be honest - he was meant to be a shy man - its just he came about at the time of the Beatles and BEst was a very handsome man and got drawn into it - I certainly never heard stories of him glorifying his hollywood style status as the likes of Beckham and Cole do!

[knobchez]

I'll reminf you of when Giggs first burst onto the scene he was indeed "bigged up" by the media-him and Lee Sharpe. He was goin out with Dani Behr - the ultimate football celeb slut! Its to Giggs credit (and due to Ferguson) that he became the professional he did!

However in this day and age it is a lot harder for footballers to go off the band wagon and go on benders-especially the ones playing at the top - back in Best's day it was common place for footballers to go drinking all the time - he just had an addictive personality (his mother was also an alcoholic) and got caught up in the evils of drinking! I doubt Best wanted the media hype to be honest - he was meant to be a shy man - its just he came about at the time of the Beatles and BEst was a very handsome man and got drawn into it - I certainly never heard stories of him glorifying his hollywood style status as the likes of Beckham and Cole do!

so he never glorified himself with those brylcreem adverts and other sponsors! Why has this topic turned into a best-loving thing when the guy jumped a nhs queue for a new liver that he ended up pi**ing away for a second time.


And well done to man city/sven for beating the scum!

[Nerik]

Think you're talking out of your arse Johnny to be honest. Giggs is a fantastic player but nowhere near the talent that Best was. Best was a great talent that underachieved. Similar to Gazza if you ask me. I would never have Best in my top 10 ever footballers for that reason alone (him not achieving what he showed he was clearly capable of). However some of the footage I have seen of Best is unbelievable. He was a standout talent in an age of greats. Giggs is one of the top EPL players of the 90s. The best winger in Europe in the last 15yrs possibly but no way near the top 10 talents of the last 15yrs if you ask me e.g. Zidane, Rivaldo, Figo, Stoichkov, Romario, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Henry and others.

[Nosferatu]

You're trying to be a smart arse Robser, and you're failing miserably.  Maradona was winning the Italian Cup when he was 30 and appearing and scoring in the World Cup when 34.  He also was playing for the team he loves, Boca Juniors until he was 37.

Below is the UEFA Jubilee poll listing the top European footballers (Does not include any of those amazing Brazilian talents such as Pele, Garinche, etc, or any of the Argentinian talents) and Best is 19th.  A very good showing for a very good player.  But the best?  No where near.

1 Zinedine Zidane  France 123,582
2 Franz Beckenbauer  West Germany 122,569
3 Johan Cruijff  Netherlands 119,332
4 Marco van Basten  Netherlands 117,987
5 Dino Zoff  Italy 114,529
6 Alfredo Di Stéfano  Argentina  Spain 107,435
7 Eusébio  Mozambique  Portugal 103,937
8 Lev Yashin  Soviet Union 101,862
9 Michel Platini  France 99,380
10 Paolo Maldini  Italy 95,497
11 Ferenc Puskás  Hungary  Spain 94,361
12 Paolo Rossi  Italy 91,194
13 Ruud Gullit  Netherlands 91,001
14 Bobby Charlton  England 89,921
15 Lothar Matthäus  West Germany  Germany 86,798
16 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge  West Germany 86,649
17 Franco Baresi  Italy 83,800
18 Gerd Müller  West Germany 82,668
19 George Best  Northern Ireland 79,036
20 Kevin Keegan  England 78,840

A very good showing for a very good player? C'mon, the guy wouldn't show up for training and when he appeared for matches, he was drunk. On top of that, most of the guys listed were part of successful international setups. So to get among them with all the above shows he must have been one hell of a player when he did play.

I've also read reports when Northern Ireland played Holland at one point, he ran rings around Cruijff.

I don't think the media would be too arsed with him if he wasn't that great either. Plenty of pin up stars around that time who got up to no good and were good players. No one was too bothered with them after they stopped playing.