My new favourite pundit

[zaphod]

- Saw this link posted on another forum.  Are these guys for real?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=286873.0

[shass]

some good points in there Zaph.

[kopdude]

Other than the points that Suarez is not a racist, Ferguson is a self-righteous cunt, Dalglish has done a lot for the club and the city, and the media are scumbags, I don't agree with the rest of that article.  I don't see this issue as an agenda against the city of Liverpool, like that post is making it out to be.

[Nerik]

Did not read the article as I do not have much time this evening. Is it along the gist of the Tories being against Liverpool? I know that it was certainly the case in the 80s as is well proven by documents being released from the Thatcher era.

In this case I do not think it was an anti-Liverpool bias that prevailed. It was more a case of the FA picking on a dirty little foreigner and punishing him harshly in contrast to how the England captain is getting treated. The media tow the same line in their majority i.e. easy to have a go at Johnny foreigner but an Englishman doing the same thing would not be treated in the same manner. Have Evra accused Gerrard in similar circumstances he may have received more flak than Terry but certainly nothing near what Suarez has received.

The irony in all this is that the FA are hard on racism, ban Suarez for 8 games, strip Terry of the captaincy, sever ties with Capello over the fallout from this and then appoint Stuart Pearce in the interim, a man who once racially abused another player and who the FA took no action against.

[Nosferatu]

I don't think you can say that Nerik until you know what will happen to Terry. You're essentially branding Terry as guilty before he's been tried which as bad as you can do unless of course you were there and had first hand knowledge. I am not sure really what the FA can do here. The referee heard and say nothing. None of the players complained. None of the staff complain. It was a punter that made the complaint and they complained directly to the police. Joey Barton in one of his tweets says the FA should have just got on with it, dealt with it immediately one way or another and allowed any of this shit to go away.

However that poses two problems. The first one is if the FA find Terry guilty or not guilty and the police find him the opposite. The FA looks bad. Worse still if it's very much apparent they got it wrong. The other problem is that it won't technically go away until the police deal with it.

The player is innocent until found guilty. Once that's the case by all means throw the book at him and brand him. But until then, it's not exactly good to consider him otherwise. As for media treatment, a lot of that is to do with the approach of the club. I said all along the constant defence, bickering and moaning is what's working against the club and the media treatment of Suarez. The minute the club accepted that and came out with a couple of apologies, everyone applauds them and for the first time since this happened have the club got any respect.

It was just PR ignorance and living in their own bubble.

As for anti-foreigner sentiments, I don't necessarily think it's as bad as some people are trying to make it out. I think the majority of fans would like to see 11 local players on the pitch, managed by a local manager. Nothing wrong with that. More than likely you will see passion there and a firm belief in what the club stands for. Failing that, they are happy to see foreigners come in as long as they see the same qualities there. But as I said in the previous thread, quite a lot of foreign players tend to bring qualities that fans don't appreciate and that has knock on effects for other players. I mean if you think of the worst divers, it's always foreign players you think of.

There's also issues within the game that add to this. The price of local players for one. And also the reluctance of the bigger clubs to sell to each other. Means clubs are more likely to hit the foreign market to bring in the quality they need.

[Nerik]

Wow Nos taking the opposite view.......as usual. Was Suarez treated as innocent until proven guilty by the media? He was targetted from the word go, whereas we get pics of Terry holding a black baby whilst out Christmas shopping. I can smell a media ruse a mile away, seems like you can't. I am not saying Terry is guilty, though the type of charge he is facing already means that there is more in terms of evidence to be used against him than Suarez had. That is another fact you will ignore I am sure.

Haha now even trying to justify the anti-foreigner sentiment. If I think of the best players in the EPL it is mostly foreign players who I think of too. If I think of the worst in terms of behaviour, discipline etc. it is usually not them. But hey, they are divers. Some of them racist too.

[shass]

some good points in there Zaph.

I was taking the piss, the OP is a load of shite.

[zaphod]

- Heh, thought as much

[shass]

was waiting for you to bite!

[zaphod]

[Nosferatu]

Wow Nos taking the opposite view.......as usual. Was Suarez treated as innocent until proven guilty by the media? He was targetted from the word go, whereas we get pics of Terry holding a black baby whilst out Christmas shopping. I can smell a media ruse a mile away, seems like you can't. I am not saying Terry is guilty, though the type of charge he is facing already means that there is more in terms of evidence to be used against him than Suarez had. That is another fact you will ignore I am sure.

Haha now even trying to justify the anti-foreigner sentiment. If I think of the best players in the EPL it is mostly foreign players who I think of too. If I think of the worst in terms of behaviour, discipline etc. it is usually not them. But hey, they are divers. Some of them racist too.

It seems to me you are saying Terry is guilty. You're not giving any benefit of the doubt and comparing his treatment to someone that was. With Suarez, we knew straight away what the story was. We knew Evra made a complaint because of something that was said. And we knew Suarez had used a particular term. So from a very high level, it was easy to judge. You either thought there was no excuse for the use of term or you thought there was an excuse for its use.

With Terry, as far as I am aware, we don't know. We know Terry apparently shouted across to Ferdinand to say he didn't call him a black bastard. But we don't know if he did actually says that. We don't know what Ferdinand thinks, QPR or indeed the fan who reported it to the police. Also Chelsea have said very little about it as the players so there's less of a media focus.

He's been stripped of the captaincy. It's the right decision because it was always going to be an welcome distraction but it still will be a very unfair one if he is innocent. So effectively he has been judged as guilty in that regard.

And really, whatever the media allows the England players to get away with on the pitch, they certainly go after them on the front pages. It was just before the last tournament wasn't it when Terry was outed for the Bridge thing. Rooney has been done on the prostitute thing twice. Cole's been done for a few things etc. The same sort of focus isn't being put on the foreign players.

I think there is a certain amount of anti-sentiment but nothing out of the ordinary. Van Gaal was widely lambasted in Barca a couple of years ago for bringing in so many Dutch players.

Essentially there's two sides to this. One side is that the best players in recent years have been foreign players. I don't think anyone disputes this. But the other side is that due to the amount brought in and the fact quite a lot of them have been average at best but still brought in, it has worked against the emergence of domestic talent. We've seen both sides ourselves at Liverpool. We've had some of the best foreign talent at the club. But we've also had a lot of crap that we never should have played never mind bought instead of focusing on the domestic talent.

[kopdude]

some good points in there Zaph.

I was taking the piss, the OP is a load of shite.

need a sarcasm smiley.

[Nerik]

Wow Nos taking the opposite view.......as usual. Was Suarez treated as innocent until proven guilty by the media? He was targetted from the word go, whereas we get pics of Terry holding a black baby whilst out Christmas shopping. I can smell a media ruse a mile away, seems like you can't. I am not saying Terry is guilty, though the type of charge he is facing already means that there is more in terms of evidence to be used against him than Suarez had. That is another fact you will ignore I am sure.

Haha now even trying to justify the anti-foreigner sentiment. If I think of the best players in the EPL it is mostly foreign players who I think of too. If I think of the worst in terms of behaviour, discipline etc. it is usually not them. But hey, they are divers. Some of them racist too.

It seems to me you are saying Terry is guilty. You're not giving any benefit of the doubt and comparing his treatment to someone that was. With Suarez, we knew straight away what the story was. We knew Evra made a complaint because of something that was said. And we knew Suarez had used a particular term. So from a very high level, it was easy to judge. You either thought there was no excuse for the use of term or you thought there was an excuse for its use.

With Terry, as far as I am aware, we don't know. We know Terry apparently shouted across to Ferdinand to say he didn't call him a black bastard. But we don't know if he did actually says that. We don't know what Ferdinand thinks, QPR or indeed the fan who reported it to the police. Also Chelsea have said very little about it as the players so there's less of a media focus.

He's been stripped of the captaincy. It's the right decision because it was always going to be an welcome distraction but it still will be a very unfair one if he is innocent. So effectively he has been judged as guilty in that regard.

And really, whatever the media allows the England players to get away with on the pitch, they certainly go after them on the front pages. It was just before the last tournament wasn't it when Terry was outed for the Bridge thing. Rooney has been done on the prostitute thing twice. Cole's been done for a few things etc. The same sort of focus isn't being put on the foreign players.

I think there is a certain amount of anti-sentiment but nothing out of the ordinary. Van Gaal was widely lambasted in Barca a couple of years ago for bringing in so many Dutch players.

Essentially there's two sides to this. One side is that the best players in recent years have been foreign players. I don't think anyone disputes this. But the other side is that due to the amount brought in and the fact quite a lot of them have been average at best but still brought in, it has worked against the emergence of domestic talent. We've seen both sides ourselves at Liverpool. We've had some of the best foreign talent at the club. But we've also had a lot of crap that we never should have played never mind bought instead of focusing on the domestic talent.

Not saying that Terry is guilty. Just saying that for him to be charged by the police there is a stronger case than just one person saying "he called me a black bastard".

Also did we really know what Suarez said from Day 1? There was talk of nigger, negrito and later negro. Far from sure, let alone then the number of times it was said.

Find me articles calling Terry a racist in the same way Suarez has been and was before the case. The likes of Oliver Holt are calling Suarez a racist, yet in defence of Terry he goes and claims that "you black bastard" may not be considered as a racist offence by some of his black mates. Surreal!

Oh and whilst talking about guilty, have you changed your mind about Downing now?

[Nosferatu]

We had a good idea about Suarez. Whether it was nigger, negrito or negro, we knew a word was used that could be construed as being a racist term was used. Whether it was completely innocent or not, we knew he said something. And as I keep saying in this regard, if you go back on the Liverpool news section of any site or media output, you'll see nothing but stories about players talking up Suarez at the club, the manager saying something, the t-shirts, someone in Uruguay saying something. So it was always in the media spotlight and it was always going to be commented on. For each of those stories, there was always a bit more leaked out about the incident.

With Terry, it's been handled much quieter. Maybe that's just luck. They saw what Liverpool were doing and the reaction they were getting. But there's been very little leaked out. I still have no idea of what actually happened. And by that I mean there isn't enough speculation or rumours out there to suggest he is guilty or not guilty. Look, there is obvious bias for the England stars. We know that. But I think part of the issue here is that no one can really say much about this case because it's going through the courts. Say too much and you could prejudice the case. So journalists have to be very careful in this. I haven't read anyone really condemning him but nor too have I read anyone defending him.

If Holt is saying that then he's a fool. The issue is a hot topic now. You really have to deal with the subject head on and correctly. The British PM is talking about it today. Look at the Mirror and there's a story about the PM, a story about an ITV report using coloured rather than black, story about Morrison being done for a homophobic tweet and another attack by an anti-racist group, a local one at that:

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Local-anti-racism-groups-criticise-Liverpool-over-support-for-Luis-Suarez-article868015.html

I just don't see anyone getting away with this at the moment. I expect Terry to be well hammered over it if he is found guilty. I don't think the FA have any choice in this.

A big part of the issue here is related to a report I read which I can't find. Don't know the truth of this but apparently Suarez gave an interview to some Uruguay TV station which he said he knew what he did on the pitch to Evra and that Evra should have kept it on the pitch. Blatter said something similar. So there probably is a case where there is a lot of this happening every week but only a very small bit of it reported.

Having said that, the Utd supported who was done a few weeks ago was actually outed by supporters around him. It's just such a hot topic now and you have to be really really careful.